Done with Dieting Episode #87: Style Masterclass with Judith Gaton

My definition of style is that style is very personal. It’s your thoughts and your feelings about yourself outwardly reflected.

So, I think a lot of women are socialized to believe that style, which I think is really what we interchange with the word fashion. Those are two different things. And we think of fashion, which is trends. What we’re supposed to be wearing this idea of body shapes.

If any of you back in the day, did those stupid quizzes in a magazine that was like, you are a pear here’s all the things you’re not allowed to wear. And if you’re an apple, we’re so sorry. Here’s the even smaller list of things you can wear in this laundry list of things you should never wear.

And I don’t know who these people are who are going to be like the apple and pear police that were going to come get you, I have questions. But this is what we’re socialized believe. And then, add to that, this whole idea of the colors. If anybody got their colors done back in the day, I see you nodding, right?

Which is all predicated upon this idea that oh, my gosh, I have so many thoughts about this. That we can categorize people by their skin color and then tell them what they’re allowed to wear and not allowed to wear. Which I have just fundamentally, we should all be highly suspect of any system that’s predicated on that. Not to mention the entire idea of a color system was built with lighter skin tones in mind, not melanated skin tones. So, it’s automatically problematic.

You are listening to the done with dieting podcast. The podcast for women in midlife, who are done with dieting, but still want to lose weight and feel good in your clothes.

You know that diets don’t work long term. But you feel like there’s this secret that everyone else knows that you just haven’t figured it out yet.

I am your host, Elizabeth Sherman. And I’ve helped hundreds of women get off the diet roller coaster, change their relationship with food, exercise, and their bodies.

Through this podcast, my goal is to help you too.

Welcome. Let’s get started.

Y’all we are talking about style today. This is going to be so fun. Welcome to the done with dieting podcast episode number 87.

I do have a quick warning for this episode. This episode contains a brief discussion of physical assault and rape culture. Listener discretion is advised.

Now, today’s guest is Judith Gaton. And she is not just super stylish, but she’s absolutely a delight. And she’s so super clever. You are going to enjoy today’s episode especially, if you are one of those women who has the thought floating around in your head that you don’t want to buy new clothes until you get to your goal weight.

Also, I’d like you to know that Judith also has this amazing solution for those of you who have multiple sizes of clothes in your closet. It’s just brilliant. So, I thought it was so smart. But I don’t want to tell you all the things, just listen for yourself.

Let’s get started.

Elizabeth: All right, everyone, welcome Judith Gaton to the done with dieting podcast. Judith, I am so excited that you are here. First, tell everyone who you are, what you do, and who you help.

Yes. Okay. So, I’ll try and keep it short cause I know we’re going to dive into all the things that I’m super excited and we kind of had tiny pre-chat we’ll let the listeners know. So, we’re really excited to come to talk to you today.

Judith: I’m Judith Gaton, I’m a master certified life coach and a personal stylist. So, we call that style coach just for short. I was a litigator for a very long time. I was a lawyer for 11 years and a managing partner and then decided to leave it all and go pursue this other chapter in my life.

I serve high achieving women who figured out careers, professional life, their entrepreneurial life, but not their closets. So, that’s typically what I do in a nutshell, so to speak.

Elizabeth: Well, and I think it’s so interesting because I joined self-coaching scholars when you were still a lawyer. And I remember seeing you get coached when you were trying to figure out like you were on the partner track or you were already a partner. Yeah?

Judith: I was on the partner track like fighting tooth and nail and not to be a partner. And then, it was kind of funny because I think at one point, Brooke is our coach mentor. Brooke asked me, when are you going to be a lawyer? Have you set a date? And she’s like, they’re going to give you a raise.

I was like, no, they’re not. And then, they made me partner and then I was like, they made me partner. She’s like, yeah, I know I had a feeling. So yeah, I became partner, but I think the beautiful thing is my transformation happened very much in front of a thousands of humans. So, there really was no place to hide secretly from what I was going through.

And I think that actually was kind of helpful in the process to be quite honest. In retrospect, at the time, not so much. People would be like, you’re the girl who can’t lose her, like quit her job. And be like, yeah, that makes that’s so helpful. Thanks guys.

Now, it gets to be this fun thing where everybody got to see me come through that which is kind of cool. But I think it’s any journey. Right? We kind of happens in front of people more so than I think we’d like.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Well, and so you were just burnt out on being a lawyer. Yeah?

Judith: Yes. I think burnt out. I don’t know that I would’ve used those words at that moment in retrospect. Oh, my God. Absolutely. Oh, my poor low me. I don’t know how I was doing it all. Like I was running my business and a full time lawyer and was in trial most days. And I was handling what we call catastrophic claims.

So, people who’d been severely injured and had some sort of lifetime medical requirements. And when you get to that stage of the kind of lawyering I did it wasn’t like me with another opposing counsel. It was me and my team with them and their team, trying to figure out how we’re going to care for this person for a lifetime because something terrible had occurred.

So, it was more like I was carrying the weight of all these terrible things that had happened to people. Like if they were my responsibility and I had to. And I’m sure, somebody listening was like, oh man, that’s me. Right?

Carrying it all like it was my responsibility. And I think what I got coached on most often was it’s not all my responsibility. And that is how I was able to come through it. But I don’t know that I would’ve identified it as burnout then I see it now so clearly. Even though, I was doing all this stuff. I was definitely burned out.

Elizabeth: Well, that’s got be be just such and I don’t want to use the word burden. Because it’s not a burden, it’s a joy to be able to serve these people. But I would have to imagine that it is very common for you to take on what they’re going through and be like, I’m the one that’s going to be able to help them.

Judith: Well, it’s interesting because I was on the defense side, right? So, it’s like I didn’t represent the injured party.

Elizabeth: Got it.

Judith: I was the one who came in and had to mitigate cost, expenses, damage so to speak for my client who was usually in the defensive position. But because I held the purse strings in that situation, I got to affect a lot of good. Because I was in the defensive posture, which means I could get creative in how we problem solved and working with people.

Whereas typically those things get litigated. And it’s like torched earth kind of craziness that happens as opposed to okay, humans. What are we going to do to solve this? Because we have to work together and we’re going to be married to each other for the next X amount of time. So, we can be awful to each other, or we could problem solve the hell out of this and make this experience better for all of us.

And that was my approach to practice. It’s probably why I got so many of the cases I did and handled them. But you do get this idea that somehow if you fall short, you’ve just ruined somebody’s life. And that thought is not particularly helpful, whether you’re a parent or a litigator in high profile claims. Like those kinds of thoughts, they’re not useful. They’re not helpful. They feel very true but they’re not.

Elizabeth: Yeah. So, then tell me more about how you got involved in style. Like those two do not go together.

Judith: Yeah. So, actually I originally wanted to be an ophthalmologist in the second grade and then somewhere I realized you have to deal with blood. And I was like, yeah, I’m out. I love you all, but I’m out. Yeah. So, I did want to be a fashion designer from a fairly young age and I went to school originally to be a fashion designer. And then, I got some well-meaning advice that hurt my feelings. I got a critique from a professor who said I was technically perfect, but boring.

And then, just broke my little 20 something year old heart. And I told my family, I don’t know if this is for me. And they said, oh, you should be a lawyer. You’re really smart. And I said, okay, I’m going to go be a lawyer. So, I went to be a lawyer. And then, I met fashion lawyers, people who actually did contracts or fashion houses. And that’s how I sort of justified it at the time.

But then, you kind of find your way back to your first love. And I dare say, probably in the community of women you serve, like you probably find people have their third act, their fourth act. And they find their way back to things that they loved.

That’s kind of what I did. I found my way back to helping women, encouraging people, and doing it through style. And I feel like I’m the luckiest woman on the planet that I get to do that particular mix of amazing fun things.

Elizabeth: Yeah. That is so cool. Okay. So, Judith and I met each other through the advanced certification of feminist coaching. She was a master coach while I was in the program. You had gone through it in the previous cohort. And I’m fascinated, how is style a feminist act?

Judith: Oh, you should invited me to get on my soapbox. I got chills. Ugh, so many reasons. And here’s, the first. My definition of style is that style is very personal. It’s your thoughts and your feelings about yourself outwardly reflected.

So, I think a lot of women are socialized to believe that style, which I think is really what we interchange with the word fashion. Those are two different things. And we think of fashion, which is trends. What we’re supposed to be wearing this idea of body shapes.

If any of you back in the day, did those stupid quizzes in a magazine that was like, you are a pear, here’s all the things you’re not allowed to wear. And if you’re an apple, we’re so sorry. Here’s the even smaller list of things you can wear in this laundry list of things you should never wear.

And I don’t know who these people are, who are going to be like the apple and pear police that were going to come get you, I have questions. But this is what we’re socialized believe. And then, add to that, this whole idea of the colors. If anybody got their colors done back in the day, I see you nodding, right?

Which is all predicated upon this idea that oh, my gosh, I have so many thoughts about this. That we can categorize people by their skin color and then tell them what they’re allowed to wear and not allowed to wear. Which I have just fundamentally, we should all be highly suspect of any system that’s predicated on that. Not to mention the entire idea of a color system was built with lighter skin tones in mind, not melanated skin tones. So, it’s automatically problematic.

So, what’s so fascinating to me though is we all are born with these rules and ideas about what we’re not allowed to wear, what we are allowed to wear. And not even almost it is a liberating act to at some point say, no. Like, I will not adhere to those rules. Those rules were made up.

And here’s, how I would love to show up in the world. I’m going to stop factoring in those messages from my mama, my auntie, everyone in my formative years. The societal rules about body shapes and colors and the ideas about what’s trendy. And I’m going to just say, no.

And then, finally start asking myself, how would you like to show up today? What would you love to wear? And really lean into that? And that is a huge paradigm shift for most women.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Yeah. And I say it like that because in my own life, I have had two different, I want to call them like reawakening in terms of my style. And I’m going to show you a picture and for everyone who’s listening, I will put it in the show notes or on social media.

This is a picture of my family. This happened on a random Sunday when we were all together. We all look alike. We’re all wearing different color, solid colored t-shirts, and khaki shorts about the same length.

Judith: Yes.

Elizabeth: And we just moved from a rental that we were staying at for five years, and most of our stuff was in storage. And I’ve only recently uncovered this picture from five years ago. And immediately, when I saw it, I felt oppressed.

Like, I look at the previous version of myself who was 30 years old at that time. And my heart goes out to her because I remember at that time, I wouldn’t even wear a freaking V-neck shirt because I thought that it showed too much like skin.

And so, I moved away from my family, and I started experimenting with clothes and like putting on a V-neck and being like, okay, no, one’s watching me. This is okay. I’m safe. And then, like doing more and wearing like closer knit, like clothes, like showing off my shape, and not wearing like this big boxy thing. And yeah, I love your definition that your style is yourself, what did you say yourself?

Judith: Yeah. Your thoughts and your feelings about yourself outwardly reflected. Yeah. Your self-concept outwardly reflected.

It flies in the face of so much of what we’ve been taught. It takes some time. So, some of you listening right now are like, wait, what? Like you slow motion your brain just like started to slow down and was like, pause. Definitely process for a second. We get it because like the V-neck. Let’s talk about the V-neck because I’ve had multiple clients.

And I’ve had a lot of clients and I find that there’s an age range where the V-neck was a like, is kind of a thing we have to overcome. And usually, actually my clients about in their fifties is where I notice is that the V-neck is like a thing.

And what’s so fascinating to me is usually their mom told them like, nice girls don’t wear V-necks. Or their grandma said something or there’s just someone in their life who made a comment about V-necks being for those kind of women. And then, to not be that kind of woman, whatever that means you have to I guess we’re crew necks only. I mean, I have questions about the theory here like, what was going to happen in the V-neck? But I get it, right?

So then, it becomes part of your identity. Well, I’m a good girl. I’m a nice girl. I’m a good woman. Or I’m not that kind of woman. So therefore, here’s how I should dress. And it closes off to you, all of this stuff, like clothes that are closer fitting to your body, V-necks, stripes, red. I had a client who was in the law to wear red because her mom told her that only horrors wore red essentially, for lack of a better way of putting it.

So, it’s kind of like when I tell you something like, it’s your thoughts and your feelings that outwardly reflected. And you’re like, holy crap. Because some of those thoughts are not your own. Right? You were given them.

So, we get to go look at all those thoughts and kind of figure out like, do you want to keep this? What if you’re a good woman, air quotes, whatever that means. And you totally rock a red V-neck and nothing bad is going to happen. You’re safe, as you said, right? Your identity is still safe. It’s just a red V-neck.

Elizabeth: Well, I think that and as you’re talking about this, I’m seeing it happen in my brain. That the reason why rape culture. Right? She was asking for it with what she was wearing. And so, if you avoid wearing things that are suggestive, then supposedly were supposed to be safe. Yeah?

Judith: I love that you brought this up. There’s a really powerful, and I really was got chills literally, actually this time. I’ll joking aside. It’s a traveling art exhibit called, “she was asking for it.” Or like, what was she wearing? She was asking for her, what was she wearing when it happened. I think it is something to that degree.

And they put on display in malls, like very just normal places. They put on display, the clothing that women have donated to the art exhibit that they were wearing when they were sexually assaulted. And I can tell you ‘all the clothing is all over the place. In terms of levels of revealing. We have women who are completely covered from head to toe. Mom jeans, big sweater, and they were sexually assaulted.

We have less covered clothing women were sexually, it never mattered what you were wearing. It was always about a power play between the perpetrator and the victim. It was never about what she was wearing. So, I get why our parents, our moms, the people who cared about us during our formative years would tell us things like that because that was a narrative they were given.

But the reality, it actually doesn’t hold up. Statistically, it doesn’t hold up. It doesn’t have anything to do with that. But it’s become part of the ingrained in our culture. It’s like, well, what was she wearing? It doesn’t matter.

Elizabeth: Well, yeah. I mean, if it was all about what she was wearing, or her sexual desirability, or even her actions. Then, 90 year old women would not be getting raped.

Judith: Yeah. When I have talked to clients who’ve been assaulted, and this comes up because it does. And naturally of course it would. I’m telling you like, be liberated, wear what you would love. And they’re like, it’s actually not safe. What we have to rewrite is the idea that what you wear causes people to behave a certain way.

Elizabeth: Mmm. Talk more about that. That’s fascinating.

Judith: That whole concept is simply not true, but we really have to dismantle it. So often times, I take it to the concept of professionalism, and I take it out of the context of assault. Because that’s fraught with its own emotions, and I don’t want to minimize or invalidate those experiences.

But let’s say, in the professional context, oftentimes we think like if we didn’t dress the part, we’re not going to get the blah, blah, blah. Cause that’s what we’ve been told. You have to dress for the job you want.

Well, okay folks, but that’s not actually how it works. What I choose to wear my body. I can’t like my clothing, a pile of fabrics creatively stitched together can’t actually cause anyone to think a particular thought it has no power. It’s a pile of fabric.

We’re giving so much power and we’re not holding people to account for their actions by blaming the pile of fabric. So, the most empowering thing we can do is to place like agency and authority and responsibility with the human actor, not the pile of clothing.

Your pile of clothing didn’t make them pass you up for a job. Your pile of clothing didn’t make you get assaulted. Your pile of clothing didn’t warrant a cat call or whatever you got. It’s a pile of clothing. The person who did the cat calling, who did the assault, who acted inappropriately in the workplace, or whatever the case may be. That’s on them. We have to hold them responsible.

I think women are often take on responsibility for things, it just isn’t ours. Piles of fabric can’t cause other people to think things. Piles of fabric can’t cause neurons to fire in other human’s brains. It doesn’t work that way.

Elizabeth: So then, is there any truth sticking with the professional angle? Is there any value of truth that the way that we show up has everything to do with what we are wearing ourselves?

Judith: Yes and no. But it starts from a different place than I think we’ve been taught. So, I think we’ve been taught that we put on the clothes and the clothes cause us to think a certain way, and feel a certain way, and therefore act a certain way. Flip that around. We’re already thinking a certain way and feeling a certain way when we choose the clothing we put on.

And then, the clothing just helps support whatever role we’re playing in our own head. If I’m like, I want to feel confident today. I probably already have a spark of feeling confidence in my head. I’ve set my brain down that pathway. So, when I go to my closet, I’m like in the mode of like, well, what clothes are going to help me feel confident?

But because I’m already thinking and feeling that way. The clothing didn’t cause that that’s giving way too much power to the clothing and not the beautiful creator of the emotion, the human. Right?

So, if you were like, oh, but there was this time I felt really confident. There was this dress, right? I run through this exercise with my clients. What was your most favorite clothing item of all time? Then, how did you feel about yourself? And you could just see like, people’s faces light up.

If you’re listening right now, what need to think about that? My wedding dress, the slip dress. I had a client who was like, obsessed with this yellow slip dress. I wanna see this thing. It just sounded like it was magical. I don’t know what the f*ck was into slip dress was amazing. Right?

But it was all her delicious thoughts about herself when wearing the slip dress. Or my client who’s like my motorcycle jacket. I feel like a rebel, and I can run hills and like stomp faces. But also, help people and I was like, okay. But the motorcycle jacket’s not magical. It’s pile fabric, leather in this case. Right? It’s not the slip dress. That’s yellow silk. Amazing. It feels good probably.

But that didn’t create the magic that showing up on this woman’s face or in her heart or what she did that day. It didn’t create the memory for her. It’s a pile of fabric. Her lived experience created that sweeping thing that sort of taken over her when I ask her this question. She’s not even wearing the garment in that moment.

She can still go back to that emotion, which means it started in her brain. It was always her creating that magic. It was always her creating that confidence, that sexiness, that sassiness, that sense of rebellion, or whatever that emotion was. Which is the best f*cking news ever. Pardon of me, I didn’t know if we could curse. I just swear.

Elizabeth: You can totally swear. It’s okay.

Judith: But that’s the best news ever. Because we don’t even need the clothes to feel amazing. We don’t need our younger bodies. We don’t need our slimmer bodies. Doesn’t matter our size, weight, shape, age, like skin color. Like we can create those like magical sensations. What’s the way we’re thinking.

And then, we can decide what we want to wear from that place. It is just much for your experience. It’s like the best. I get all thinking about my clients, come to that realization, that’s f*cking magic.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Well, and it’s the same thing that I teach my own clients. So, like you get this motorcycle jacket for example, and you feel like the bomb wearing it and you wear it all the time. And then, at some point, you start to look at it in the mirror, it’s the same motorcycle jacket. But you start to notice it’s got nicks, or it’s got cuts, or it doesn’t fit exactly right.

And so, your thoughts about it change, it’s the same thing. It’s the same circumstance. It’s your thoughts about the motorcycle jacket that ultimately change how you feel. It’s your thoughts about your body that ultimately change how you feel. Even though, you’re at the same weight the entire time. Yeah?

Judith: We’re in the same skin suit we’ve always been in. We have very different thoughts about it, depending on any number of things that are going on because we’re choosing to think about ourselves in a particular way.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Okay. So, this actually ties directly into what I brought you on the podcast to talk about. Which is many of my clients believe that they don’t want to invest in a new wardrobe until they’ve lost the weight, or they’ve gotten to goal, or whatever thinking that they don’t want to spend the money, or I don’t know, whatever beliefs they have. You probably have more visibility into that.

Judith: So, it’s variations on a theme sometimes it’s money. I think it’s like the precursor. They’re like, I’m going to just say money because it’s the one we normally can say, I like. But I think what underlie that is somehow that they’re admitting defeat or failure if they buy clothes in a larger size.

Elizabeth: Mm. Yeah.

Judith: Which I think is so interesting because we have a history of tag size drama in this country that makes sense. Totally, makes sense. And I’ll just give you a brief history of sizing in America. We don’t have standardized sizing number one. We never standardized sizing.

We attempted, in the thirties and forties to standardized sizing, but we based the standard on men’s uniforms. Okay. So, when they were taking circumference of chest to create sizing standards, they weren’t factoring in breasts. They were using male uniform standard sizing. So that’s automatically problematic.

Then, we tried it again and we’re like, okay, we’re going to actually poll women, except we’re not going to include any women of color. Which um, okay, so wait, what? Huh? Like we’re missing a huge part of the population, but sure. Not to mention that the women who actually like different variations on this story.

But apparently, the women who actually participated in this attempted standardization came from like poorer regions were probably malnourished. And we’re talking like usually white immigrants of a certain background in a particular place and time.

So, it’s like, again, not even a sample of the white population, if we were to even go there. So, like, it’s just really bizarre our attempts. So then, we are like out of hell with it. Okay. So, everybody pick your own tag size system, which has become a free for all craziness.

So, every brand has their own what we call basic blocks. Right? So, if any of you are seamstresses, you know what a block is but it’s the idea of we’re going to standardize on paper. A basic pattern for clothing. So, a shirt is going to have a basic block and it’s going to be based on this standardized person that we’re going to use as our fit model.

So, she’s probably 5’10, 5’11. She’s probably a size four. That is now the standard for this brand. Well, guess what my fellow humans, very few of us are size four 5’10, 5’11 women. And not even all 5’10, 5’11 women in a size four look the same or the same shape, okay. So, this becomes the craziness. This is why at some brands you probably are like, I fitted everything here. It’s like magic.

Well, you probably look a little closer to their fit model. And then, some brands you’re like, it’s the same freaking size. Why can’t I fit into it? Because their fit model looks totally different than you do. She’s probably a different height. Her hip just bust ratios is different than your own.

So, this is a craziness we’re dealing with. Which is why you can be a size four or an eight or a ten across three different brands. And no wonder why we have drama when we enter the fitting room. Especially, when we get messages from movies that you have to be a size two or size zero. God forbid should be a double digit size cuz what does that mean about you.

Even though, the majority of the population. Let’s just say, Northwestern hemisphere are technically mid-sized people they’re like a 10, a 12 and a 14. That’s the majority of us y’all. But you’re not told that. And a 10 and a 12 and a 14 are different at 5 million different stores.

So then, when we tell you lovely things like clean out your closet, get rid of things that don’t fit you. No wonder we have a little drama about it. And you think you have somehow failed. God forbid, we should tell you to buy a size 12, which you might actually be. Because it means so much about you. Because of all the messaging that got wrapped up along the way.

So, it’s okay to have a little drama about it. We love you so much. But also realize where that’s stemming from. And it’s not an admission of failure to wear clothing that actually fits you. It’s totally, the opposite.

Elizabeth: Yeah. And I love that. So, thank you for that. And I can only imagine, as you were talking, I was thinking, I know that I’ve bought clothing that I didn’t really like just because it was a smaller number.

Judith: So many. So many women it’s like, oh, well I could get into a site six here. So, I’m definitely buying these pants. I’m like, do you even like those pants? No, I didn’t like the crotch. It was like bugging me the whole time. Okay. So, why are we, why, why I love you fellow humans, but why? And I think, it’s just this idea that we did the smaller, the number, the better, which is just simply not true.

Elizabeth: Right.

Judith: So, one of the things I teach my clients. And I think being a seamstress has really done wonders for my own brain is to start to think like a tailor. So, it’s kind of one of the tools we teach is if you were a tailor, how would you approach these numbers? They’re just numbers.

And all of us, humans are weird creatures. We are gangly little creepy weirdos. None of us are symmetrical. All of us have one arm that is a little bit longer than the other. We have one bicep that’s slightly bigger than the other. Like one of our calves is inevitably bigger than the other. Like, we are weird.

And usually, because we’re using one side more than the other like, we’re just weird. If we get our arms wrapped around that idea, like nothing’s right, everything’s off. And these are just numbers and I’m going to think like a tailor. Then, what do I need to do to get a fit that feels good. That’s just such a different way to think about numbers and tag size but it takes work. You have to work your way there.

Elizabeth: Well, and I love that idea. Like if you had your own personal tailor, that there were no numbers associated with it at all. It was just custom tailored to your body. Would you feel bad about the size?

Judith: Most of the time people are nonplus. Like I have clients take their measurements and I have them take weird measurements. I’m like, you’re left wrist. Like this circumference of this like just weird parts of their body that they normally don’t think about. I’m like, tell me your thoughts about it. They’re like, I don’t have thoughts about it. Like, I don’t care. Or I love when my clients are in the different metrics, like metrics system versus the Imperial system.

So, I’ll have them switch. I’m like go find out what your metric numbers are or vice versa. And they’re like, this means nothing. I’m like, yeah, of course it means they’re just numbers. So, you don’t even know what like you have not assigned a meaning to 42. It’s just 42. It doesn’t mean anything to you.

So, it’s fun to play with it that way. But if you’re thinking like a tailor, it means ‘garbly goop.’ I was just trying to get a good thing.

Elizabeth: So, something that is so funny is that as a personal trainer, I used to take my client’s measurements a lot. One thing that was always just so interesting was that their neck was usually the same size as their bicep. I can’t explain it.

Judith: Yeah. And again, humans are weird creatures. Whoever decided the ratios for these things, they’re like, how did you decide that? Did y’all get at a table? And you’re like, I know for fun, here’s what we’re going to do. And for a lot of humans, not all of us, but like our arm span is our height. Not all of us are perfectly square in that way. But for the most part, those like adages are true or like your forearm is the length of your foot. Like weird things.

But again like, who decide the ratios? Like some people got like, God, I have questions. It’ll just be so fun. I have a lot of questions for you. We’re weird creatures. So, the more we get our arms are wrapped around an idea, then we can let things be fun again and kind of embrace our weirdness, the absurdity of the things we obsess over.

I’ve had a few clients now I want to say, let’s just say a handful. The size of their head was a thing. And culturally, that makes sense for some cultures. Some cultures, it didn’t quite make sense. And like, it comes up. I don’t know. Like why, okay. How big should it be? Right?

And for some of us we kind of giggle and some of you are like, oh yeah, no, that’s totally me. I think my head’s too small for my body or my head’s too big for my body or whatever the thoughts are. It’s just math babes. It’s just numbers. Think like a tailor.

Elizabeth: So, thinking about someone who wants to start branching out and buying new clothes, what are your recommendations for that?

Judith: Yeah. So, if you’re on a weight loss journey or let’s just say a journey where your weight is fluctuating for whatever reason, they’re up or down. So, I have some clients who are building muscle and they’re getting like booty gains and that’s a whole different kind of a journey. Right?

So, whatever your body happens to be doing. Let’s say, your body weight in size or shape or fluctuating. And it’s in flux right now. What I recommend is we don’t go and buy a ton of stuff. And I think that’s part of the reluctance into all the money concern as well is like, well, I don’t have to buy a bunch of stuff that I’m not going to wear. It’s like, well, why are we buying a bunch of stuff?

Chances are a lot of your clothing, not all of it, but a lot of your clothing will probably still fit you. So then, the goal is let’s buy one outfit at a time. And let’s make sure that outfit includes that we’re filling the gaps in whatever your current.

So, if you know, your pants are falling off your ass, baby, got a new pants. Like, what are we doing? If you know that your bra is going to fall off of you and I had a client who refused, she was losing weight. She was down about, oh my gosh, a lot. I’m going to say, well, over 50 pounds, not quite a hundred. She had lost a significant amount of weight, refused to buy a new bra.

But was wearing the same strapless bra went into a meeting and she said, literally felt the bra go bloop, loop. It just fell off of her in the middle of the meeting. And she was like, oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. It’s like around her ways. And she’s like shuffling away. Don’t make her like, clearly something had happened there. Right?

So, I have clients to like refuse, refuse. And I’m just like, you could do whatever you want, boo. But think of how much easier it is to stay on your plan, to stay on your protocol, to do your workout, whatever your current regimen is.

If you actually feel good about yourself, because you’re not distracted by ill-fitting clothing. It’s so much easier to take care of yourself when your clothing actually fits you. Cause we’re not starting off a cascade of like being distracted by little weird things.

So, we need to buy a fill in the gap garments, maybe it’s a bra free, maybe it’s a pair of jeans. Make sure whatever outfit you’re bringing in. One, that it actually fills in that gap. And number two, that we can mix and match with some of the items we already have. So, we’re making outfits out of what we’ve got on hand. But also we had at least we’d have one good outfit if we really need to dress appropriately for something.

And then, the second step is to check in at regular intervals. So, if we know our weight is going up and there’s going on, maybe we just got to start at a new medicine. Maybe we hit menopause and we know sh*t is just getting weird down there and we’re letting it settle. We’re going to pick an interval. Every two weeks, we’re just going to check in and see how things fit or every month.

Now, if you’re losing weight every few pounds. Now, there’s these weird adages out there that aren’t true. So, I want to kind of debunk this. The idea that every 10 pounds is a size. That’s not true for a lot of women. So, they lose their 10 pounds and they’re like, I should be a new size by now. Sorry, love. You may not be, depending on your body and what it’s doing.

For some of you, it’s going to be five pounds and you actually shrink before the pounds actually get released through water. I don’t know what your body’s going to do. You pick the interval. For some of you, it’s going to be once a month, we’re going to check in.

For some of you, it’s like I lose slow and not a lot happens. I’m going to do every two months. You pick your interval to check in with fit. And then, at that point we can identify what gaps we need, and we can buy one outfit all the way down. And then, a certain point, a lot more is going to be replacing, but you’ve already climatized your brain to the idea that this is not a super dramatic thing that has to happen all at once.

You’ve normalized, the idea that you’re going to need clothes that fit you well. And you’ll get to a point where you’ve really built that rapport with yourself, where you can go do that and maybe bulk or three pairs of pants, three tops at a time. And you’ve kind of built that rapport with your brain.

Elizabeth: I love that. And so, we talked about this just very briefly. But cleaning out your closet, what are your recommendations on that? Because women do have very strong ties to things that they used to wear 10 years ago that are now out of style.

Judith: Yes. So, I love y’all, just going to say that, because I know some of you are going to object right away. So, hear me out. I want you to remove from your closet, anything that doesn’t currently fit you. So, if you have goal clothes and I put that in air quotes, hanging in your closet to shame you, I mean, motivate you. I mean, shame you, whatever. Every time you walk into your closet, we need to remove those from your line of sight.

Because when we have so much that in our closet, it’s like we’re having to make all these snap decisions. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Before we even started our day, when we have other decisions, we probably need to be making. So, we want to just create this like a little boutique for yourself in your closet.

We’re only going to have things that fit you, that actually fit your current lifestyle that fit your current personal style. That’s what is in our closet. That’s only what’s in our closet. The rest of it goes into what I call the museum archive. We’re going to lovingly take care of it. We’re going to make sure it’s washed, that it’s buttoned, that it’s zipped.

If it’s a memento and something we’re clearly not ever going to wear again, we put it within mementos and the keepsakes. Your concert t-shirt from when you were 15. I have a pair of underwear that you’re wearing when your water broke, whatever your pleasure love.

But we wash those things, we wash those things. And then, we put them with the keepsake items. And then, stuff that we may want to revisit. We have a place where we keep the archive, we review the archive, we go through the archive. But it’s not at the forefront of your mind. It’s a little mind f*ck, shame palace every time you walk into your closet.

Elizabeth: I love that because you’re saying, get it out of your closet, but you don’t have to throw it away.

Judith: Not if you’re not ready. I don’t think that’s fair to tell people that. I don’t get to decide what’s important to you. And it creates so much friction that like, there’s gonna be other harder stuff for us to talk about. We don’t have to talk about whether you should get rid of your 501s from when you were 25.

Like we got bigger fish to fry, certainly. And the beautiful thing is once we’ve done those other pieces of work like worked on your body image or your confidence, or you defined your personal style. When you revisit that box of stuff that seems so important, a lot of the stuff is going to lose its importance.

But we don’t have to get so grippy. We just put it out of sight. You don’t have to get rid of it yet. Let’s work through some other tools and then we can revisit it and decide together.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Now, one phrase that you are famous for is get rid of your janky panties.

Judith: Yes, please.

Elizabeth: Let’s talk about that. Underwear.

Judith: Underwear is one of my favorite topics. Although, I have an aunt who’s like, mija, why do you always talk about panties? It’s kind of weird. Is there something going on? And I’m always like, what do you think’s going on? Like, yeah. What do you think I’m doing over here?

It’s really funny to me. And she’ll like, if I get online and I’m talking about panties, like I get like a stream of like direct messages, because she’s very active on Instagram. This, again? I thought we talked about this. I’m like, I don’t know. Do you think I heard like a panty ring? I have questions. Anyway, I digress.

So, janky, let me define that because sometimes I get questions like, what does that mean? So, janky just means things that are really old, holy stained, the elastic is shot. Think of it as like junk, like junky. That’s what we’re saying. We want you to get rid of those items. Like they serve no purpose. They’re not supporting you in any way. And I’m literally and figuratively. They do good.

And I think what I find with a lot of my clients. There’s like three categories of janky. There is a too small and it’s like crawling up your butt janky. There’s the droopy drawers where you’re like afraid to let them go in case you like regain weight or something happens to you.

And then, there’s everything is a period panty. Everything has stains and holes. Like it all just got gross, but the excuse was those are my period panties. Those are my bloated panties. And everything got nasty somewhere along the way.

And all of its janky though. If it’s crawling up your butt all day, it’s janky. If the elastic is shot, it’s janky, like all of those things. And I think they’re just kind of a beautiful little shorthand way to see what’s going on for that particular woman and other areas when they’re having all these underwear that just aren’t working for them. But they have the one good pair and God forbid, the one good pair is not washed.

If you feel that way about any of your underwear, it’s probably time to go through it. If you have the one good bra you’ve been wearing for a decade. You know who you are, it’s probably time for a new bra and to go through it, just saying.

Elizabeth: Well, and one of the things that I do with my clients and I talk to my listeners about is something that I call a body scan. Which is multiple times a day you’re checking in with your body. And part of that is actually checking in with how your clothes are fitting.

And like, does that bra under wire dig into your side? And why is it that we’ll notice that and be like, I need to throw this thing away. Yet, we still put it back in our drawer or we put it in the laundry and then we forget about it. And then, the next time we put it on we’re like, oh yeah, this bra.

Judith: Oh. And all of you immediately were like, oh, I know the bra. I know the pair of panties. Like you identified it right away. Like I know, you know, which ones are those pants. Those particular pair of pants. Right? We all have these weird things.

I think it’s partly like scarcity mentality. There’s not going to be more in the future. Sometimes clients couch it in religious terms, I have to be a good steward of the things I have. So, I’m going to keep all this stuff that’s really awful and feels terrible. And I get it. I respect that like you probably got that idea somewhere along the way. But simply not true. It simply not true.

And the best example is when I give from real life is I was in court. And I wore a pair of spanks that I was clearly too small for me. And I knew they were the bad spanks, right? Like the ones I should not reach for, but they were the only ones that was clean. I was like, ah, I’ll do it anyway.

So, I squeezed myself into these d*mn things. I’m in the middle of an oral argument and I can feel my belly pop out. And then, I felt them like, roll. Like, loop, loop, loop, loop, loop, right? Like as spank that are too small or want to do or pair panties that are too small or want to do.

And suddenly, my brain was no longer on what I was doing, which is like giving this fabulous argument. I was going to like, sh*t, how am I going to make my exit? Is my belly sticking out? Is my belly sticking out of my shirt now? But I can’t look because I’m talking to the judge. I have to make eye contact.

Completely, distracted from the task at hand. And that’s exactly what’s happening when we’re wearing panties and bras in particular that don’t fit us. And we’re ignoring it. Like you said, I have my clients do a body scan as well. And it’s so incredible to me. I’ll even do it on a live free classes that I give them. Like everybody pause, check in.

And I have people type in like, I’m getting rid of this ponytail. I didn’t realize why I had a headache all day. I’m taking this bra off now. I’m like, I can’t see you. So, just go take it off. If you’re listening right now and you’re like, damn it go, we can’t see you. Get free boo. Get free. Strip off those panties. We have no idea what’s happening. We can’t see you like, go get free.

Or like, my shoes are really hurting. Why the hell am I wearing these heels? I’m taking these pants off right now. Like people like, I just love the idea of like hundreds of women all over the world stripping suddenly, and behind their cameras. Right? Like just like the funniest thing.

Because these little intolerances all day long, all day long, we just put up with it. We put up with it because we were probably taught, beauty is pain, and this is sort of the price you pay. And it’s simply not true.

Elizabeth: You just said something that reminded me that for most of my young adult light, I swore that I was an eight and a half size shoe. I’m a nine, nine and a half. Like I was walking around with one size, too small shoe with my poor little toes.

Judith: Yeah. Oh..

Elizabeth: I know, right.

Judith: Oh.. But this is what we do. Right? Cause we get wrapped up in a number and it was a weird thing for a while to be lady like, you had to be under a size nine for some reason. I’m not sure what that’s about but you know, teach their own, this is what we’re taught weirdness.

And then, we all ran around in too smallest shoes because we thought we had to break them in. That was the other like idea you had to break in your shoes. Unless, you were riding horses and have very particular kind of boots. You don’t break in your shoes. That’s nonsense.

Some of us have wider toe boxes. Some of us have smaller toe boxes. Some of us have higher arches, flatter arches. Some of us are flat footed. Like we all our feet require different things and we’re all running around in pain, and we just don’t have to.

Elizabeth: Yeah. So good. Now, tell us about your programs because you have a really interesting way that you help your clients. You do personal shopping, but it’s not personal shopping. Yeah?

Judith: It’s both. Yeah. So, we shop for all of our clients who come through our eight week style and coaching program.

Elizabeth: Okay.

Judith: So, once we’ve clean out your closets, we got you fitted for bras and undies. And we define your personal style. Then, we shop for you. We take all your measurements. We’ve identified how you show up in the world, how you’d like to show up, what the gaps are in your wardrobe. And we create a personal site. Everyone gets their own personal website. And it will be like, it’s all shoppable.

So, it’s like a store that’s dedicated to you, your preferences, and your size. So, you don’t have to figure out where to go or what size you are. We’ve done a lot of the guesswork for you. And then, we also teach you how to shop on your own.

Because for me, the biggest gift I can give to every woman is give her the tools, so she doesn’t need me forever. I mean, I love my clients and they end up hanging out with me forever anyway.

But I like to arm them with enough tools that like once our time together is over, you can confidently go in the store and advocate for yourself. You can confidently go online and know how to navigate a store without getting overwhelmed.

So, it’s both. We teach you to shop for yourself, but we also shop for you so that you know where to start the next time you have to venture out on your own.

Elizabeth: Well, and so, it sounds like one of my favorite shows that I used to watch was “what not to wear.” Right? With Stacy and Clinton.

Judith: Clinton Kelly.

Elizabeth: Yes. So, it’s kind of like that. And then, as you were talking, I was also thinking about like stitch fix. And so, it’s like those two services together or no. How was it fit in?

Judith: Kind of. I know a few people who were stylist at subscription box services. So, I’m not personally a huge fan of them. And here’s, why. I find my clients don’t advocate for themselves with their stylists. They just get endless box after endless box.

And they’re like, eh, I mean, it’s okay. Like it’s all right. I mean, I don’t really like any of things. I’m not really wearing any of the things that I’m too embarrassed to tell the person. Which is funny, because like that lady didn’t make any of the stuff you’re being sent.

And the other thing is a lot of the subscription services have partnerships with brands. So, you’re only going to get introduced to a very limited amount of brands because that’s what they have their licensing contract with.

Again, this is not a problem in and of itself, except for sometimes everyone looks kind of homogenized. And they’re a stylist who’s pulling garments for you doesn’t have enough resources at her disposal because she has to work within these certain brands.

So, yes, in that like we are helping you with the shoppable part and you get to go pick your stuff. But no, in that, we’re not actually sending you the garments. You get to learn how to do all of that on your own because you should learn those skills because our time together will come to an end at some point.

Elizabeth: Well, and I can totally see how women wouldn’t advocate to themselves because we are so often taught that we don’t want to be the squeaky wheel, or I don’t want to be difficult. And so, if I put too many demands on my stylist, then they’re going to hate me. Right?

Judith: Yeah, or they’ll judge me. And I’m like, you are one of thousands on their list. They’re not thinking about you. They’re really not, folks.

Elizabeth: There’s someone out there who’s worse. I promise.

Judith: Yeah. I’m sure, you are. And right, we’re socializing. Like I don’t want to be that lady. No, go be that lady.

Elizabeth: Right. Because that lady gets what she wants.

Judith: Exactly. She has bras that fit her, panties that fit her, clothes she actually likes. Be that lady. Please be that lady.

Elizabeth: Yeah. That is such a great program that you have, and I totally need to join it. Because since I’ve been in Mexico, I need to figure it all out.

Judith: Yeah. And we’ve shopped for people internationally because I think that comes up too. So, we have people we’ve shopped for in Canada, the UK, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Germany, we got folks all over and we just make sure that it can ship to your country or that we have some sort of Dropbox system, my Canadian peeps y’all know what I’m talking about. Like to get stuff across the border to you wherever you are.

But we usually shop within those parameters. You let us know and we make it work.

Elizabeth: Cool. So, what drives you crazy? I do have a question for you. What drives you crazy when you see women doing?

Judith: The walk of shame. And here’s what I mean by that. And it’s not what you think it’s not the night after. Although, that’s always fun to see because you can identify it. But anyway, that’s a different story.

The walk of shame is what I call when you see women walking in shoes that are very painful and they’re doing that like stegasaurus, peg walk. And they’re like, wincing and I wince for them like internally I’m like, that must f*cking hurt. Why are you wearing those shoes?

And then, you see them like stop and stand on one foot and then shift weight to the other foot. And then, look around to see if they could take one off and just put their foot on the cold floor for a second. That sh*t drives me crazy. You say, I kind of want to walk around with like, this makes sense.

My husband and I made a deal. I’m not allowed to give homeless people rides anymore for various reasons. But I’m allowed to give them food and like blanket. So, I like carry it around like food and blankets. And I also want to carry on flip flops and be like, Hey babe, I saw you hurting. You want some flip flops girl, you know, you want them, right?

I just want to be the flip flop lady, goes around and like the hurting feet women around the world. Cause it’s so unnecessary. It’s so unnecessary. It’s not cute. It is not stylish when you’re doing that like stegasaurus walk of shame pain thing. It’s just, okay, sorry. But, oh man, be nice to yourselves please.

Elizabeth: Now, the other thing I wanted to bring up is you wear hats. And I am so envious of you wearing hats. Trying on hats in fancy department stores is like my guilty pleasure. I call it my guilty pleasure. I love wearing like wild, fancy, like crazy hats. And you wear them, pull it off. I love that.

Judith: So, why don’t you walk out of the store with a hat?

Elizabeth: I don’t feel like I have an outfit that kind of goes with it.

Judith: Tell me what that means. Like, how would you know if an outfit went with a hat?

Elizabeth: I don’t know. I guess I look at the Royal family and like what happens in the UK as far as like fancy hats go and they all seem to be very coiffed.

Judith: Yeah. But like, what if it’s not required?

Elizabeth: True. Well, and I think that for a long time, I wouldn’t buy hats because people look at you when you’re wearing a hat, right?

Judith: Oh yeah.

Elizabeth: And so, the thoughts that were in my head were they’re staring at me, they think that I look like an idiot. But probably more or less, they were thinking, wow, she’s wearing an amazing hat.

Judith: Yeah. Or like when you see me in a hat and you’re like, I want to wear hats too. Like that also could be in their brains. It could also be, oh, wow, that’s a ridiculous hat, but f*ck those people. Like we’re not dressing for them. And I’ve had all kinds of reactions to how I dress. Especially, for like full vintage style with the fur, and the pearls, and the whole, the reproduction shoes and all of it.

I mean, I get the funniest reactions and I used to worry the same thing, honestly. So, I eased myself in, I started with the vintage hair and then the red lipstick. And then, I was like, I’m aware of vintage clothes. Okay. Nobody actually gives a sh*t. Okay. And I’m going to do it again. And then, still nobody cares.

And then, sometimes I would get comments but then I start to find it more amusing, than anything else because I found that some people were just delighted because they never knew what I was going to show up in. I let them be part of the fun. And then, anybody who wasn’t into it, that’s okay. They don’t have to be. Totally, don’t have to be.

But hats, I think people have that idea like you have to wear a certain, I don’t have a hat head, or I don’t have an outfit. And the only way we find an outfit for a hat is to buy a hat and wear it with outfits.

Elizabeth: I love that.

Judith: Yeah. You live in Mexico. Like just like the fabulous hats that are available to you. My God woman, all the sun hats.

Elizabeth: Well, I have been wearing sun hats for sure. But I’m talking about going out to dinner, hats. Like you wouldn’t necessarily wear a straw hat in that restaurant.

Judith: It may all the bright straw hat. I don’t know, maybe.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Yeah. But you know what I mean? That happened that you were wearing it mastermind. That was amazing.

Judith: That hat had it like took on a life of its own. And I feel like the hat should have its own Instagram or like it goes out to eat and has like travels and adventures. It was so funny. I didn’t think by posting like, it came from London and it’s very cool hood London, if anybody is in to hats.

And it was traveling from London, and I was watching it painstakingly to see if it would arrive. And it arrived, but I have a rural postal carrier and he was being a douche and just didn’t want to post like, send it that day. And I’m like, I am leaving tomorrow. So, I called the local post. I’m like, Okay, so, I sound crazy. But there’s a hat from London and she needs to come with me.

So, I started posting like the adventures of the hats arrival and whether it was going to arrive or not. Nothing used to take a life of its own. So, the crazy postmaster, he was like, if you come within the next 10 minutes, I will pull the hat for you, tell no one. I was like, okay, it’ll be our secret now. It’s not our secret, of course. But he was so cool, and I came, and I got my hat. I was like, she’s here. So, I was like, she’s here.

And then, when I arrived at the event, everybody, who gives a shit if I was there. It was like, where’s the hat? Which does she get here? Is she okay? I’m like, well, thanks guys. I’m fine. Just so you know, I’m good. Like the hat we had like a following. It was really funny, but it’s an epic hat. And I feel like she needs adventure. She needs to go out more often. She needs a name. We need a name.

Elizabeth: I love that. I didn’t even know that story. That’s fantastic.

Judith: So fun.

Elizabeth: So, you have a podcast. Yeah?

Judith: Yes. My podcast is called style masterclass and episodes are really, really short. They’re about eight minutes with an action for you to take at the end. So, they’re kind of weirdly bingeable. So, please go listen there.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Awesome. And where can people find you?

Judith: Yeah. The best entry way is style masterclass, or you can check out to see what we’re working on, what programs are open by going to judithgaton.com.

Elizabeth: Awesome. Well thank you for being here. You have just provided so much value. I know that there are so many women who are listening. Who are now going to run out and do something for themselves because they’re tired of wearing janky, not just janky panties, but janky sweatpants and clothes. And yeah, they need to update.

Judith: Yeah. One item at a time. One outfit at a time and you could build a fabulous wardrobe. Just start small and it’ll build.

Elizabeth: Awesome. Thank you for being here.

Judith: Thank you for having me.

All right. Chatting with Judith was so much fun. I had so many questions. And I’m sure going to join her style masterclass. It is such a great service. I hope you enjoyed the episode and I’ll see you next week. Bye-bye.

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